Nightvision devices and sights

[Leopardi]

http://www.achtungpanzer.com/german-infrared-night-vision-devices-infrarot-scheinwerfer.htm

The nightvision devices/sights used by the germans in AT guns and vehicles saw a lot of combat, but still no game to date has had them. This would be something very unique, I'm sure CE3 would allow good looking realistic NV effects.

 

[Determinist]

If the developers will add this, they will need to balance some stuff through the teams, because it will be unfair, and the German team will have a big advantage at night.

 

[VonMudra]

Only used by a specialized unit in the extreme late war. Was never used outside that unit or time frame (no evidence beside apocryphal statements), and as such, will not be in game period.


Also, I would note that the mod for BF1942, Forgotten Hope 1, had a map with them specifically designed around that one actual, recorded battle.

 

[Roughbeak]

Germans did have an unfair advantage though, with all their stuff.

 

[VonMudra]

Not really. By 1944, the Luftwaffe is basically gone, the artillery corps is limited and on strict ammunition rationing, the tank corps has lost most of it's experience tankers (and has no reserves or replacement tanks to speak of), and the infantry is suffering from degrading quality due to lack of training. Motorization is back to 1939 levels (about 10%, from a peak of around 20% in 1941). Really, the only advantages the Germans have in 1944 is divisional generalship, squad tactics, infantry weapons, and tank armour/armament.

 

[Leopardi]

Only used by a specialized unit in the extreme late war. Was never used outside that unit or time frame (no evidence beside apocryphal statements), and as such, will not be in game period.

Sounds good enough reason to put in the game? Just have a map based on the unit's battles.

 

[Troy]

It seems like it could be a cool idea that could be improved on. If it was ever incorporated then maybe they should have batteries that they have to drag around on their backs. Like they do on that video. Then after so long they run out and you have to replace them?

 

[Maniche]

If such an item were to be in-game, it would require somekind of balancing like the above, [MENTION=1047]Troy[/MENTION], indeed!

Maniche

 

[VonMudra]

As I noted, the only battle it was used in was extreme late war. April 1945 in fact. There are currently no plans to expand to that anywhere in the foreseeable future, and it would be a massive undertaking to include in exactly one map which would be utterly unplayable for the opposing side if we representing night and night vision correct. The actual battle was just a few Panthers that knocked out a platoon of Comet tanks, and that's it.

 

[Leopardi]

As I noted, the only battle it was used in was extreme late war. April 1945 in fact. There are currently no plans to expand to that anywhere in the foreseeable future, and it would be a massive undertaking to include in exactly one map which would be utterly unplayable for the opposing side if we representing night and night vision correct. The actual battle was just a few Panthers that knocked out a platoon of Comet tanks, and that's it.

The site is talking about a much wider use than one battle

"From March to April of 1945, approximately 50 Panthers Ausf G (and other variants) mounted with FG 1250, saw combat service on the Eastern Front and Western Front."

"...few Panthers equipped with infrared night-vision devices possibly from 116th Panzer Division were used in 1944/45 during the Ardennes Offensive."

 

[Ts4EVER]

vonMudra afaik the anecdote with the comets is a myth or at least not supported by any evidence. The only use of the night vision equipped Panthers was around Berlin with Müncheberg Panzer Division. They received one company of Panthers equipped with the solution as well as a Panzergrenadier Kompanie equipped with the "Sperber" night vision system. The unit was used once in a night counter attack and after that was spent in a piece-meal fashion in defensive battles. The Panthers were additionally modified with extra armor plates on the engine deck, which formed a cage or "fox hole" for two infantrymen armed with night vision StG44s. They were supposed to offer close protection for the tanks in line with the "Begleitgrenadier" concept they also used with StuG units. There was a thread on forum der wehrmacht a while back that summarized the research, but I can't find it at the moment and it was in German anyway. They had quite detailed informations, including where single tanks were knocked out and who commanded them.

 

[VonMudra]

Excellent post TS. And pretty much sums up the issue, even I thought that story was real, but it turns out to be anecdotal as well. That's one of the major problems with the IR devices for the Germans: most of the stories and history going around there is conjecture and nothing more. In the end, it was an incredibly rare system for which we know very little beyind, as you pointed out, that research on single tanks knocked out with the system in the late war. Müncheberg Panzer Division did not even see combat on the Western Front, it was an ad hoc Panzer Division that formed in March 1945 and only saw action around Seelow Heights and in Berlin.

Thus it remains, as stated, that IR systems will not be in TW.

 

[Ts4EVER]

Certainly not in Normandy. On a related note, back in the fdw thread someone theorized that the Soviet use of search lights in the Seelow heights offensive was in part to foil German night vision devices, however, there is obviously no evidence for that . One should also note that the Germans were far from the only nation to research infra red scopes. Apart from the American M3 Carbines used on Okinawa, the Russians also developed an IR scope for the PPsH41 in 1943:

 

[VonMudra]

Seen that pic before, but I doubt it went beyond testing stages. And IIRC the search lights were purely to blind the German forces.

 

[Roughbeak]

Thats the funniest ppsh i have ever seen.

 

[volcol]

It looks like something from CoD :S

 

[titsmcgee852]

The prospect of having NVG in this game would be ridiculous and I hope to god it never happens

Also, I would note that the mod for BF1942, Forgotten Hope 1, had a map with them specifically designed around that one actual, recorded battle.

What was the name of that level? I'd love to play it.