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RTS Portion of game?

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MausRatte

Member
Hello, this is MausRatte. I was wondering if there'd be an RTS portion to the game, that is very similar to HnG's. If not, I feel this would be a great addition to the game.

Edit: I'm not going to create an entire new post, but I feel it would be great to add in an American and Soviet Union faction. Britain's military was no match for Germany's, I feel they're going to get destroyed. The only advantage they had was their Air Force and Navy, which is not going to be in the game.

Regards,
MausRatte.
 

volcol

Well-known member
Can't tell if trolling or serious.

There will be no resemblance between our style of gameplay and HnG - in FPS or RTS formats.

The Brits were a major factor in the defeat of Germany - it wasn't purely the Russians and the U.S - in fact it could he argued the major role I defeating Germany was that played by Russia. Many of my family members fought in the British army and its a very poor observation that the Brits would have been 'destroyed'

I'll let our historian [MENTION=147]VonMudra[/MENTION] give a little more intelligent insight to this matter.
 

MausRatte

Member
Can't tell if trolling or serious.

There will be no resemblance between our style of gameplay and HnG - in FPS or RTS formats.

The Brits were a major factor in the defeat of Germany - it wasn't purely the Russians and the U.S - in fact it could he argued the major role I defeating Germany was that played by Russia. Many of my family members fought in the British army and its a very poor observation that the Brits would have been 'destroyed'

I'll let our historian @VonMudra give a little more intelligent insight to this matter.

I never said they were useless, in Africa they played a very large role. In Europe though, they mostly provided supporting roles to America. If they hadn't defended their country so well from the Germans, we'd all be in a different world, as for the U.S. would have no real way to get into France. Russia played the largest role in the war on the allied side. They were not great defenders, but when they pushed for a counter attack on Germany, they pushed them all the way back to Berlin in 2 years. The U.S. was the bulk of Operation Overlord, with a lot of support from Britain and Canada. Russia had already been well across Poland when the U.S. invaded Normandy. I'm just saying that Britain is not the largest factor in WWII on the Allied side (I'd say they were well on their way to 2nd, but they were probably had the third biggest impact. Their Navy and AF had dwindled Germany's Navy and AF) compared to U.S. and Russia

Also, I'm not trolling. I don't know very much about the project currently, and I just wanted to put in a suggestion. Sorry.
 

VonMudra

Well-known member
Bro, do you even history.

The British army contributed 6 Armoured Divisions, 8 Infantry Divisions, an Airbourne Division, and several brigade sized armoured and specialist units. The Canada also contributed 1 Armoured Division, 1 Armoured Brigade, and 2 infantry Divisions. Also fighting alongside the British forces were 1 Polish Armoured Division, 1 French Armoured Division, and Free Belgian, Dutch, and Czechoslovakian Motorized Infantry Brigade each, along with the many airforce and naval assets. By comparison, the US Army had 4 Armoured, 13 Infantry, and 2 Airbourne divisions. Meaning, in total, the British and their Commonwealth/Free National allies contributed 9.5 Armoured divisions, 11.5 Infantry Divisions, and 1 Airbourne. Meaning slightly less infantry, but a much higher number of Armoured Divisions amoungst the British sector forces. Roughly half of all Allied forces in Normandy were British or Commonwealth.

In fact, the British were involved in far, far heavier fighting than the Americans in Normandy. They were facing a total of 7 Panzer Divisions, whilst we in the American sector faced two. This was simply due to German planning, Caen was the focal point of the German defense scheme in Normandy, which meant the British sector was far more important than the American sector, where they were willing to cede land for better defensive positions and time. The German defense in Normandy collapsed the way it did less because of Op Cobra (the German OKW had planned for that, and were going to use Caen as a pivot to swing their forces back to the Seine) and more because of Operation Luttich, Hitler's idea for an attach that would pincer off the American spearheads, which turned into a bloodbath as the Germans not only found that their tanks didn't change the fact that Bocage was a nightmare for tank combat, and which allowed the British to break out and form the Falaise Gap (which the Poles and the Canadians held closed, mind you).

In total, you argument is utter insanity. The British Army performed incredibly in Normandy, as well as Italy and Burma, where it scored one of the biggest victories of the war at Imphal and Kohima, in what was known as the Stalingrad of the Pacific. To say that the British were reduced to supporting roles in the land war is to be utterly incompetent in the history of the conflict.

For battles in the Normandy Campaign, I suggest you look into Operations Perch, Odon, Charnwood, Jupiter, Goodwood, Totalize, and Tractable, for the largest and most important tank battles of the campaign. The combat around Caen utterly dwarfed the Bocage sector in terms of tank combat. Wikipedia is a good start, but there are plenty of wonderful books on the battles as well, both the British debacles (Charnwood, Goodwood) and whooping successes (Totalize, Tractable).




EDIT: Just read your last post. You are correct that the Russians were the most important Allied contingent (though I use the term 'allied' loosely,' though you are quite incorrect in stating them as "not great defenders", considering the Russians did more than anyone else to stop the tide of the Wehrmacht, and stop it cold in it's tracks they did. Russia was also not 'well across Poland" when the ALLIES invaded Normandy. Operation Bagration did not kick off until July of 1944, and the first Russian troops did not enter Polish pre-war soil until later that month (though as far as the Soviets were concerned, that had been Soviet soil since 1939). Also, on you saying when "the American" invaded Normandy, I will remind you that a total of 4 American Infantry divisions and a ranger battalion were involved in the actual beach landings, compared to 2 British Infantry, 2 British Tank brigades, 1 Canadian Infantry Division and 1 tank brigade, and contingents of Free French and Commando units. In total, the numbers landed on the beaches were roughly equal.
 
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MausRatte

Member
Spoiler:
Bro, do you even history.

The British army contributed 6 Armoured divisions, 8 infantry, an airbourne, and several brigade sized armoured and specialist units. The Canada also contributed 1 Armoured Division, 1 Armoured Brigade, and 2 infantry divisions. Also fighting alongside the British forces were 1 Polish Armoured Division, 1 French Armoured Division, and Free Belgian, Dutch, and Czechoslovakian Motorized Infantry Brigade each, along with the many airforce and naval assets. By comparison, the US Army had 4 Armoured 13 Infantry and 2 Airbourne divisions. Meaning, in total, the British and their Commonwealth/Free National allies contributed 9.5 Armoured divisions, 11.5 Infantry Divisions, and 1 Airbourne. Meaning slightly less infantry, but a much higher number of Armoured Divisions amoungst the British sector forces. Roughly half of all Allied forces in Normandy were British or Commonwealth.

In fact, the British were involved in far, far heavier fighting than the Americans in Normandy. They were facing a total of 7 Panzer Divisions, whilst we in the American sector faced two. This was simply due to German planning, Caen was the focal point of the German defense scheme in Normandy, which meant the British sector was far more important than the American sector, where they were willing to cede land for better defensive positions and time. The German defense in Normandy collapsed the way it did less because of Op Cobra (the German OKW had planned for that, and were going to use Caen as a pivot to swing their forces back to the Seine) and more because of Operation Luttich, Hitler's idea for an attach that would pincer off the American spearheads, which turned into a bloodbath as the Germans not only found that their tanks didn't change the fact that Bocage was a nightmare for tank combat, and which allowed the British to break out and form the Falaise Gap (which the Poles and the Canadians held closed, mind you).

In total, you argument is utter insanity. The British Army performed incredibly in Normandy, as well as Italy and Burma, where it scored one of the biggest victories of the war at Imphal and Kohima, in what was known as the Stalingrad of the Pacific. To say that the British were reduced to supporting roles in the land war is to be utterly incompetent in the history of the conflict.

For battles in the Normandy Campaign, I suggest you look into Operations Perch, Odon, Charnwood, Jupiter, Goodwood, Totalize, and Tractable, for the largest and most important tank battles of the campaign. The combat around Caen utterly dwarfed the Bocage sector in terms of tank combat. Wikipedia is a good start, but there are plenty of wonderful books on the battles as well, both the British debacles (Charnwood, Goodwood) and whooping successes (Totalize, Tractable).




EDIT: Just read your last post. You are correct that the Russians were the most important Allied contingent (though I use the term 'allied' loosely,' though you are quite incorrect in stating them as "not great defenders", considering the Russians did more than anyone else to stop the tide of the Wehrmacht, and stop it cold in it's tracks they did. Russia was also not 'well across Poland" when the ALLIES invaded Normandy. Operation Bagration did not kick off until July of 1944, and the first Russian troops did not enter Polish pre-war soil until later that month (though as far as the Soviets were concerned, that had been Soviet soil since 1939).

Well, I've been
. But I uphold my statement about U.S.S.R being poor at defending. Compared to Poland, Czechoslovakia, France, and many other countries, sure, but they were rather unprepared. If the U.S.S.R would have created a better defensive line, there is no way Germany could have gotten nearly as far as it did, but when the Red Army went through with a counter attack, they had absolutely destroyed the German's in Eastern U.S.S.R. If the U.S.S.R. had not pushed into Poland, then into Eastern Germany, the war would have changed drastically, and same if the U.S./UK/Canada had not invaded Normandy. Either way, a country would have had to spend a lot more resources pushing Germany all the way back to either France or Poland alone.
 

VonMudra

Well-known member
Well, I've been
. But I uphold my statement about U.S.S.R being poor at defending. Compared to Poland, Czechoslovakia, France, and many other countries, sure, but they were rather unprepared. If the U.S.S.R would have created a better defensive line, there is no way Germany could have gotten nearly as far as it did, but when the Red Army went through with a counter attack, they had absolutely destroyed the German's in Eastern U.S.S.R. If the U.S.S.R. had not pushed into Poland, then into Eastern Germany, the war would have changed drastically, and same if the U.S./UK/Canada had not invaded Normandy. Either way, a country would have had to spend a lot more resources pushing Germany all the way back to either France or Poland alone.

Any one country would have had issues. The USSR probably would have been fought to a stalemate in 1943/44 had it not been for Germany fighting multiple fronts, after which there would have either been the classic 'Bitter Peace', or a slow German retreat due to an utter lack of resources and manpower. But the USSR did remarkably well as a defender, and all German memoirs attest to how incredibly hard the Russians fought on the defensive (The Finns were also no exceptions, and many Finns found, while easy to defeat attacking Russian units in the Winter War, it was next to impossible to root them out in Finnish counter attacks).

And no, Poland and France fought quite well indeed. One must remember (then again, most don't even know this) that the German Panzerkorps was butchered in Poland, losing about 75% of their tanks knocked out in combat (The Germans entered Poland with ~2000 tanks, of which ~1400 were knocked out in combat, of which ~850 were unrepairable in field, and of those ~250 had to be scrapped due to being so totally destroyed by internal explosions). Poland lost due to being outnumbered, surrounded on all sides, and lacking any kind of support from her allies. The French had promised an offensive into the Rhineland within one week of a German declaration of war, and as such, Polish withdrawal timetables called for a week long fighting retreat to the Vistula, followed by a week long defensive campaign to hold under French pressure from the promised offensive forced the Germans to pull their forces out. The Poles more than held up their end of the bargain (and gave such a drubbing to the Panzerkorps and Luftwaffe (the Luftwaffe suffered ~25% casulties in the Polish Campaign) that the Germans HAD to spend the next 6 months simply rebuilding their shattered forces), the allies did not. In the end, the Polish collapse was due to the invasion by the Soviet Union, which ruined Polish defensive operations as the Polish Army switched from a steady withdrawal to the Romanian Bridgehead (the area of southern Poland that was planned as a final redoubt in case of a failed (read: non existent) French offensive, and instead went into "escape to fight again" mode, with thousands of Polish troops either donning civilian attire or going into internment in Hungary, Romania, and Lithuania, to later travel to France and England to reform and fight for the rest of the war.

The French meanwhile put up an incredible fight (their air force especially preformed well above the quality of their aircraft, and no French fighter plane type had a KDR not in it's favour), losing more or less due to the civilian government and high command losing their nerve at critical points where they were getting close to cutting off the German spearheads.

Finally, Czechoslovakia never had a chance to fight thanks to England and France, however had she in 1938, the German High Command was roundly convinced the Wehrmacht would have been utterly helpless in the face of the Sudetenland fortifications, and Hitler possibly would have been overthrown thanks to that. The Wehrmacht was utterly unprepared for a stand-up fight in 1938, and even in 1939 was never prepared to go toe to toe with the French or British, and only won in Poland thanks to the Soviet Union and the lack of any outside support for the Polish military.
 

MausRatte

Member
Spoiler:
Any one country would have had issues. The USSR probably would have been fought to a stalemate in 1943/44 had it not been for Germany fighting multiple fronts, after which there would have either been the classic 'Bitter Peace', or a slow German retreat due to an utter lack of resources and manpower. But the USSR did remarkably well as a defender, and all German memoirs attest to how incredibly hard the Russians fought on the defensive (The Finns were also no exceptions, and many Finns found, while easy to defeat attacking Russian units in the Winter War, it was next to impossible to root them out in Finnish counter attacks).

And no, Poland and France fought quite well indeed. One must remember (then again, most don't even know this) that the German Panzerkorps was butchered in Poland, losing about 75% of their tanks knocked out in combat (The Germans entered Poland with ~2000 tanks, of which ~1400 were knocked out in combat, of which ~850 were unrepairable in field, and of those ~250 had to be scrapped due to being so totally destroyed by internal explosions). Poland lost due to being outnumbered, surrounded on all sides, and lacking any kind of support from her allies. The French had promised an offensive into the Rhineland within one week of a German declaration of war, and as such, Polish withdrawal timetables called for a week long fighting retreat to the Vistula, followed by a week long defensive campaign to hold under French pressure from the promised offensive forced the Germans to pull their forces out. The Poles more than held up their end of the bargain (and gave such a drubbing to the Panzerkorps and Luftwaffe (the Luftwaffe suffered ~25% casulties in the Polish Campaign) that the Germans HAD to spend the next 6 months simply rebuilding their shattered forces), the allies did not. In the end, the Polish collapse was due to the invasion by the Soviet Union, which ruined Polish defensive operations as the Polish Army switched from a steady withdrawal to the Romanian Bridgehead (the area of southern Poland that was planned as a final redoubt in case of a failed (read: non existent) French offensive, and instead went into "escape to fight again" mode, with thousands of Polish troops either donning civilian attire or going into internment in Hungary, Romania, and Lithuania, to later travel to France and England to reform and fight for the rest of the war.

The French meanwhile put up an incredible fight (their air force especially preformed well above the quality of their aircraft, and no French fighter plane type had a KDR not in it's favour), losing more or less due to the civilian government and high command losing their nerve at critical points where they were getting close to cutting off the German spearheads.

Finally, Czechoslovakia never had a chance to fight thanks to England and France, however had she in 1938, the German High Command was roundly convinced the Wehrmacht would have been utterly helpless in the face of the Sudetenland fortifications, and Hitler possibly would have been overthrown thanks to that. The Wehrmacht was utterly unprepared for a stand-up fight in 1938, and even in 1939 was never prepared to go toe to toe with the French or British, and only won in Poland thanks to the Soviet Union and the lack of any outside support for the Polish military.

We've gone far off topic. I concede. I still feel that the U.S.S.R and U.S. should be heavily prioritized as new factions for the game though.
 

VonMudra

Well-known member
In terms of game development, our current plans are to focus on the British sector for the first releases. Once we feel that has been done properly, with a good number of infantry, tank, beach, etc engagements, including famous and little known battles and formations, we plan to expand to the American sector of Normandy and do the same. After that, it's up in the air, but Market Garden and Italy are strong candidates. Though we would love to do the Eastern Front, that is something that would take basically making a whole new game in terms of work to correctly model and sculpt the armies, weapons, vehicles, and statics needed, so that would be on the far, far distant horizon. To put it lightly, if the distance from now to our first release is equitable to say, the distance between Earth and the moon, the distance to the American army is Jupiter (IE, planned but not yet worked on), and the distance to the Eastern Front is Pluto (IE, a distant dream if we are successful as a game).

I would highly suggest checking out our news updates and other areas where the game is explained. In general, we're not a 'faction' based game. It is a historically based, realism FPS, which is focused on providing an enriching, fun, team-play based game centered on both well known and little known parts of the war. Normandy was chosen to start with due to relative familiarity to the gamer, but the British sector due to how overlooked it is in comparison to the American sector. Thus, any and all maps currently in development are in mind to actions taking place in the British sector, right now specifically battles in the first week or two of the campaign.
 

MausRatte

Member
To put it lightly, if the distance from now to our first release is equitable to say, the distance between Earth and the moon, the distance to the American army is Jupiter (IE, planned but not yet worked on), and the distance to the Eastern Front is Pluto (IE, a distant dream if we are successful as a game).

We've already landed on the moon, is that a sign of a very relatively near alpha release? Haha.
 

VonMudra

Well-known member
Well we won't be doing an alpha or beta release (the most will be, when we DO beta, we might open applications for beta testers DO NOT START SENDING IN BETA APPLICATIONS THAT IS YET TO BE DECIDED NAGA WILL KILL ME IF HIS INBOX IS FLOODED WITH APPLICATIONS). So to parse my metaphor, let's just say that the Mercury program is beginning.
 
Something that actually made Russia a "poor defender" initially was the fact that the government instilled distrust throughout its army and society. It was a society of betrayal. So teamwork didn't exist, and people were afraid to actually express intelligent ideas for tactics by that point. As such an almost comic book look at war developed. An example of how bad things were at one point Russians had invaded Finland in 1939 wearing green in the snow because camouflage was cowardice. They stopped wearing green in snow after that but you see how stupid they could be?

Even during the war with Germany, Russian stubbornness could be a major thorn in their side. Such as Stalin not allowing army units to call off an offensive when they are dangerously close to getting encircled. Just before the push to Stalingrad Josev Stalin's orders cost Russia 500,000 men due to this sort of stupidity.

Anyway, I'm happy this game focuses on Britain for the time being. It makes it more unique than the others out there. Its not red orchestra, nor is it all the moa clones out there.
 

VonMudra

Well-known member
Oh yes, the army performed very poorly in terms of command and control issues. One of the big problems was that the political commissars, who usually had no formal military training, could override any order given by a commanding officer of his level.

However this still doesn't effect the fact that, on the defensive, the Soviet soldier was stubborn as hell, be it born of territorial pride, defending his home and loved ones against a rather brutal regime (better the regime that just oppresses and starves you than the one that just wants to outright kill you for being slavic), and/or the constant threat of being shot by a commissar or sent to a penal battalion, or worse, your family being sent to the gulags. The Russian soldier, no matter the disasters of 1941, fought the defensive campaigns in 1941 and 42 hard, and proved their mettle.
 
Oh yes, the army performed very poorly in terms of command and control issues. One of the big problems was that the political commissars, who usually had no formal military training, could override any order given by a commanding officer of his level.

However this still doesn't effect the fact that, on the defensive, the Soviet soldier was stubborn as hell, be it born of territorial pride, defending his home and loved ones against a rather brutal regime (better the regime that just oppresses and starves you than the one that just wants to outright kill you for being slavic), and/or the constant threat of being shot by a commissar or sent to a penal battalion, or worse, your family being sent to the gulags. The Russian soldier, no matter the disasters of 1941, fought the defensive campaigns in 1941 and 42 hard, and proved their mettle.

Something people tend to forget is that the communist government of Stalin though it certainly starved certain Ukrainian groups and created a culture of suspicion and fear genuinely tried to improve the lives of the people and the power of the nation. Josev Stalin was a terrible military strategist but without him Russia wouldn't have had the strength to survive the war. He literally drug Russia kicking and screaming into a modern highly industrialized nation. The development programs though horrific and brutal were like an explosion of growth in Russia.

Then after the war, even though Russia felt like it was in a deadly race against the United States. Despite the fact that Russia was gravely wounded and couldn't slow down one bit in this race, they still worked on a great many programs for the common man. Moldova today actually has a problem with drug resistant tuberculosis because the Soviet Union tried so hard to stamp the disease out once and for all(helping the impoverished Moldovan people) but they continually came just shy of accomplishing that task. The Soviet Union not only kept the Tsar era conservatory system but greatly expanded it. Throughout the Soviet Empire any child who showed musical aptitude could get the best education Russia could muster for free as part of their music education system. They even expressed far more care when occupying nations than the United States. Compare their intervention in 1968 Czechoslovakia to our intervention in Vietnam. Russia got what they wanted practically without blood, we dropped more bombs on Vietnam then in all of ww2....

Its fashionable to demonize Russia, but that doesn't give the Soviet Union, Tsarist Russia or the modern Russian Federation the credit it deserves for how diverse it actually was and is. There are dark shadows as well as bright spots in their history.
 
I might be wrong but didn't the french mainly loose because of a pacifist politic under the socialist Unions Government and a lack of amored divisions which werr instead used to Support the infantry.
 

Wilhelm

Member
I might be wrong but didn't the french mainly loose because of a pacifist politic under the socialist Unions Government and a lack of amored divisions which werr instead used to Support the infantry.

Yes, but it is political part of it. They also because of small portion of tax money being used on re-newing and mechanising the army they already got, not alot foreign arms purchases were made as well.
 
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