Dev Blog #33: Player Identification

[Killen]

I feel the lack of a compass on the bottom of the screen this is better for immersion but not that easy while fighting! I really liked the survey and the update,
the game looks like it's shaping up! (if that means something)

 

[mopskind]

Great work guys. Most things have already been said. But on the topic of friend/foe identification- i would consider looking in the RO2 direction. What distinguished factions most from each other besides uniform color were the sprinting animations. I know you guys are probably glad that could get at least one animation in, since it is really hard to craft these thing realisticly. The way RO2 does it, is that the german team sprints with their gun in one hand (as they were taught in training? History buffs come to rescue!). Allied soldiers sprint the way you display it right now. Since players in realistic FPS spend a lot of time sprinting from one cover to another, this is player state or animation that you see quite often and can tremendously help identifying friend/foe.

 

[Wenceslaus]

Those giffs really look good!

To the HUD – I feel that keeping it minimal or ideally none at all is the best way. The flags doesn't have to be there. I think those (with mentioned compass and similar) could be hidden in map screen or such.

And about those green points above head (or even names) – I would rather be team killed as consequence to using enemy gun, as taking an enemy gun was my volunteer action and so I take the risk with it.
I would be even rather for not to be able to pick an enemy weapon, at least not until you have enough ammo.

Anyway, keep the good work and good luck!

 

[Kroney95]

I feel the lack of a compass on the bottom of the screen this is better for immersion but not that easy while fighting! I really liked the survey and the update,
the game looks like it's shaping up! (if that means something)

It is, U just need to press T to see it

 

[Snuffeldjuret]

I'd rather team kill and get team killed thousand times over than seeing hoovering icons like that. Zero HUD worked great in RnL. If 100% realistic skins create an issue like this, make it less realistic. The least realistic thing ever is these hoovering icons. What is the point of having them within 25 meters anyway? At that distance you should be able to see yourself, if in fact it would be realistic to know IRL visually. The argument "well, in real life, you would know where your teammates are" is bad. That argument would support so many stupid changes that removes any kind of skill and autonomy of the player.

 

[FlyingR]

I guess that could work, as an extra incentive if the SL orders to fall back and re-group. What about the MG gunner ammo though? IIRC there was some talk about the section mates providing ammo to the MG gunner, so he can keep up suppressing the enemy (sort of what Resistance and Liberation did with everyone carrying some MG ammo, or what RO2 does with the resupply feature) ? I can see interesting emerging (meta)gameplay of SL tasking a player to run to the RP and keep bringing ammo for a nicely positioned MG, and the enemy team recognizing this and organizing it's own ad-hoc cut-the-supply-line mission so they can advance forward.



I love how you guys actually listen to the community feedback. In my opinion the worst mistake a dev can make is not taking into consideration the wishes of the people who actually enable his brilliant creation to live and be enjoyed by other humans. A masterpiece appreciated only by its creator(s) is no masterpiece at all!

I agree with all of this!

I'm perfectly fine with all of this, this is an excellent idea and compromise. With this there's definitely no need to pick up enemy kits but maybe in the future, a part from ammo, you could also pick up patches. Besides that, thank you Devs for always listening and taking the community into account!

 

[Aniallator]

I love the sound of resupplying at rallies and being able to pick up weapons of the same caliber! I definitely agree with [MENTION=421]LuckyOne[/MENTION] that riflemen should carry ammunition for the squad MG, like they did IRL; a few Bren magazines for the British, one or two 50-round belts for the Germans.

But on the topic of friend/foe identification- i would consider looking in the RO2 direction. What distinguished factions most from each other besides uniform color were the sprinting animations. I know you guys are probably glad that could get at least one animation in, since it is really hard to craft these thing realisticly. The way RO2 does it, is that the german team sprints with their gun in one hand (as they were taught in training? History buffs come to rescue!). Allied soldiers sprint the way you display it right now. Since players in realistic FPS spend a lot of time sprinting from one cover to another, this is player state or animation that you see quite often and can tremendously help identifying friend/foe.

+100

 

[yrumad11]

I agree with the indicator not being shown when behind walls just for immersion reasons, but as for the indicator itself I think it is small enough to be out of the way and since back then I am sure the soldiers were familiar with who was around them seeing as how it is much more complicating to have communication in an online game with random people you never met so the indicator I feel makes up for that.

As for picking up weapons and taking it out of the game, I wouldn't do that for the sole purpose that in quite a few WWII books I read, specifically "To Hell And Back", soldiers would pick up enemy mgs somewhat regularly just as a means to suppress. Now I don't know if the UK soldiers did this regularly, but the US I know have done it moderately. I am also fairly certain a few Germans fell in love with captured ppsh's on the eastern front.

Also, if you'd run out of ammo it does make sense that a soldier would pick up a gun that does indeed have rounds he could use, but this would have to be out of desperation so i'd make sure there is an extra long animation of the guy having to root through all of the dead soldier's belongings to find extra magazines or rather have the option to just pick up the gun, if you don't have time to reload your own weapon in a pinch or if you need a more safer situation to loot the body for more rounds.

As a whole just make it more inconvenient to pick up enemy weapons and extra magazines since it would've been like that in real life.

 

[FlyingR]

Maybe just make it that when picking up enemy weapons (not the whole kit, just the weapon like in RO2), it could take longer to handle and operate, as in, longer reload times, for example as the soldiers may not have known how to use it.

 

[agus92]

That would be the most acceptable implementation, but still would suffer two major issues:

- Firepower unbalance, as Ani said. The ratio of auto/bolt guns would increase exponentially as the round develops.
- Scavenger meta: in RO2 I notice a lot of players (including myself) looking constantly for better guns instead of focusing on the battlefield. And the amount of times someone dies while running exposed to retrieve an enemy gun is huge.

I think that sharing ammo and the ability to pick ammo from bodies should be enough. Besides, I feel this problem is being blown out of proportion. Very few are the occasions I've found myself out of rifle ammo. SMG and MG's are a different beast, but then again, trigger discipline and the ability for riflemen to resupply should be enough.

 

[agus92]

Regarding the hud, I would personally leave it completely blank, except for a subtle compass in the bottom. I know it's unrealistic, something I rarely pitch for, but it is far more easy to disorientate yourself in a game than irl, and the compass is a serious teamworking asset to issue orders or report contacts. I strongly feel a compromise is needed and the compass must promote to the regular hud.

A compromise of the compromise could be having a compass with only cardinal directions in the regular hud, and a detailed compass with angle bearings when pressing T or the equivalent.

 

[Aniallator]

I agree with the indicator not being shown when behind walls just for immersion reasons, but as for the indicator itself I think it is small enough to be out of the way and since back then I am sure the soldiers were familiar with who was around them seeing as how it is much more complicating to have communication in an online game with random people you never met so the indicator I feel makes up for that.

Well... if you've ever played Project Reality or Squad then you know that communication in an online game with random people is not even remotely a problem

As for picking up weapons and taking it out of the game, I wouldn't do that for the sole purpose that in quite a few WWII books I read, specifically "To Hell And Back", soldiers would pick up enemy mgs somewhat regularly just as a means to suppress.

I don't think that's the kind of gameplay we want to encourage though, even if there were instances of US soldiers using German MGs, though I can't say I've really heard of them (though I don't doubt you).

Also, if you'd run out of ammo it does make sense that a soldier would pick up a gun that does indeed have rounds he could use, but this would have to be out of desperation so i'd make sure there is an extra long animation of the guy having to root through all of the dead soldier's belongings to find extra magazines or rather have the option to just pick up the gun, if you don't have time to reload your own weapon in a pinch or if you need a more safer situation to loot the body for more rounds.

As a whole just make it more inconvenient to pick up enemy weapons and extra magazines since it would've been like that in real life.

I'm not sure I understand why you think taking grenades/magazines off friendly corpses should be inconvenient... I mean, it's as simple as reaching into a pouch and pulling them out, and could be simulated with a brief "reaching down" animation.

 

[Zulnex]

It is great that we will be able to distinguish between friends and foes on the battlefield. This will save us from a lot of aggravation and stress. In the other games I play, I hate it when I teamkill another player by accident.

 

[Zainab]

Phew! It's so amazing

Btw there is no Middle East option? in survey?

 

[th_battleaxe]

Very good survey, and amazing update, guys.

 

[heady89]

I agree with this ^

And although I don't like having an icon on someone's head because it destroys the immersion completely (in my opinion), I guess it could make sense and wouldn't have a problem with it. The thing is, that in situations like these, it would be expected to use VOIP and ask if there's a friendly instead of rushing straight past a bush, a wall, or a door. Which it is much safer to do!

This is where the squad leaders and the teammates have to use communication before the match and state what the objective is between each other or even the SL should talk to the guys and tell them to be quiet and stick together to avoid such occurrences. I repeat, it makes sense to have it and I wouldn't mind, but I think there are better ways to solve this (like efficient communication and team members) or if there's going to be a map that shows the whole team, then check the map before engaging.

Or have a cricket clicker (just like the 101st had) which is not historically accurate, but it wouldn't completely derail and would prefer it over the icon on top of the character.

Also I'm not too fond of the flags' display on top of the map, I think that these kind of features in the HUD are a bit counterproductive. This should pop up when you open the map and also should not show the quantity of flags that your team and the opponent team has. This would encourage the players to look at the map and see the situation of the squad and team in the whole game and map, especially SLs.

A part from that, the character models and lighting are fantastic, it's outstanding and looks very realistic! The game is taking great shape, for real, I really really like it a lot.

I disagree on what you're saying about the VOIP and HUD. Essentially what you're proposing isn't game design but rather relying on the fact that players play the game in a wishful way. This only works in strict organized groups, you won't have public servers with people calling out properly or relying on in-game VOIP, you can also easily bypass the in-game VOIP and use teamspeak or any other 3rd party tool, which most players do when they squad up. So the whole people talking in-game 3d position is kind of useless for stock gameplay.

What the developers have introduced with icons to identify firendlys is a good compromise for the sake of gameplay, especially for green players to these kind of games. That said, I really think it should be a server-side option were you can turn it off. Plenty of original RO matches worked fine without icons with
minimal friendly casualities, but it requires a lot more from the people participating, especially in the beginning when the game won't just have us hardcore folks.

 

[agus92]

I disagree on what you're saying about the VOIP and HUD. Essentially what you're proposing isn't game design but rather relying on the fact that players play the game in a wishful way. This only works in strict organized groups, you won't have public servers with people calling out properly or relying on in-game VOIP, you can also easily bypass the in-game VOIP and use teamspeak or any other 3rd party tool, which most players do when they squad up. So the whole people talking in-game 3d position is kind of useless for stock gameplay.

What the developers have introduced with icons to identify firendlys is a good compromise for the sake of gameplay, especially for green players to these kind of games. That said, I really think it should be a server-side option were you can turn it off. Plenty of original RO matches worked fine without icons with
minimal friendly casualities, but it requires a lot more from the people participating, especially in the beginning when the game won't just have us hardcore folks.

Regarding the first paragraph, sorry but you're completely wrong. At least two fps games manage this: PR and Squad. Granted, the first one is a relative tight community, but the second one is a popular game.

Server side toggle for more/less realism and hud friendliness, this reminds me of RO2 system, and I find it an excellent idea!

Edit: spelling and wording.

 

[FlyingR]

I disagree on what you're saying about the VOIP and HUD. Essentially what you're proposing isn't game design but rather relying on the fact that players play the game in a wishful way. This only works in strict organized groups, you won't have public servers with people calling out properly or relying on in-game VOIP, you can also easily bypass the in-game VOIP and use teamspeak or any other 3rd party tool, which most players do when they squad up. So the whole people talking in-game 3d position is kind of useless for stock gameplay.

What the developers have introduced with icons to identify firendlys is a good compromise for the sake of gameplay, especially for green players to these kind of games. That said, I really think it should be a server-side option were you can turn it off. Plenty of original RO matches worked fine without icons with
minimal friendly casualities, but it requires a lot more from the people participating, especially in the beginning when the game won't just have us hardcore folks.

Like Agus said, Project Reality and Squad are doing it (PR as been going on for 10 years and Squad is literally one of the most realistic FPS out there), and in those games people rarely use TS or Discord because there's a squad mumble (for only squad members), local mumble (anyone can hear you in a radius except enemies), and squad leader/commander mumble where only SLs and commanders can communicate. All of this works quite well to be honest. The idea behind my suggestion is to completely immerse players in the game, to bring it closer and realistic to what it was, as in, imagine if you played this with VR and other simulation equipment, it should try to make you feel as if you were there, so to speak).

Other than that, I agree to your second paragraph, and might as well add that, what if you have a setting/switch where you have 2-3 settings:
- Arcade: like RO2 style
- Realism: PR or even more realistic
- Custom: Where you can toggle which features you like so can have some mix of both of the above

I could see this being quite a good compromise where all the members can have the gameplay style they want, adding variety and diversity to the game.

 

[Aniallator]

I disagree on what you're saying about the VOIP and HUD. Essentially what you're proposing isn't game design but rather relying on the fact that players play the game in a wishful way. This only works in strict organized groups, you won't have public servers with people calling out properly or relying on in-game VOIP, you can also easily bypass the in-game VOIP and use teamspeak or any other 3rd party tool, which most players do when they squad up. So the whole people talking in-game 3d position is kind of useless for stock gameplay.

Hahaha try PR/Squad xD

 

[Flare]

I disagree on what you're saying about the VOIP and HUD. Essentially what you're proposing isn't game design but rather relying on the fact that players play the game in a wishful way. This only works in strict organized groups, you won't have public servers with people calling out properly or relying on in-game VOIP, you can also easily bypass the in-game VOIP and use teamspeak or any other 3rd party tool, which most players do when they squad up. So the whole people talking in-game 3d position is kind of useless for stock gameplay.

Hahaha! PR and Squad will prove you wrong!

you can also easily bypass the in-game VOIP and use teamspeak or any other 3rd party tool, which most players do when they squad up.

I'm sorry but I laughed at this!

I hope you have fun playing tw once it is released.