question about telescopic sights

[drummer93]

Hi guys, I have a question

Will be telescopic sights for regular soldiers? Like the german ZF41?

Image:

Spoiler:

 

[VonMudra]

No. The ZF41 was not at all for regular soldiers anyways. It was evaluated as a sniper scope and was roundly rejected by snipers. There are stories of hundreds of them being dredged up at the bottom of russian lakes recently, where the shipped scopes just got dumped right upon arrival to never be used.

 

[drummer93]

VonMudra ,oh ok. I read that was used for regular soldiers, maybe is a wrong information, I have to verify it. Anyway, I saw a video made by the guys of "Forgotten Weapons", where they made a test fire with and without the ZF41 and really really improve their performance

 

[Aniallator]

Will there be more than one scope available for each faction? Like 6x and 8x scopes?

 

[drummer93]

here is the video, if any want to enjoy it: https://www.full30.com/video/5968e95ab5647908f5a6d7ec708ecfa8

 

[drummer93]

VonMudra, I read that ZF41 was the most produced german optic in WWII too. This is true?. I really want to know because I haven't a lot of information and I think that this configuration is really interesting. Reminds me the current rifle configurations.

I know that the snipers rejected it, but was appointed for sharpshooters and I read that was very useful

 

[VonMudra]

Thing is the German army did not have marksmen in the way that the American or British forces had. There was no designated marksman in German squads or companies as that went against everything in their squad tactics book. In fact, the man who carried the MG was generally supposed to BE the best shot in the entire squad, due to the MG's importance.

Ian is wonderful, and I love forgotten weapons, but he sometimes does mess up on the history. The ZF41 was far ahead of its time in terms of an ACOG style scope, and K98ks that could actually mount them were rare to begin with. The scope was largely produced due to how cheap it was by comparison- but production numbers don't always mean usage. Towards the end of the war, 1945 and such, you do see it start to pop up in combat footage amoung snipers, but that is more a case of being unable to get anything better.

 

[drummer93]

VonMudra

thanks for the response. So I thought that was more common than actually was.

Anyway, like [MENTION=2108]Aniallator[/MENTION] said, did you define which telescopic sights will be ingame?

 

[VonMudra]

No.4 Enfield used a 3.5x scope. K98k used a 4x scope.

 

[Esu21]

Thing is the German army did not have marksmen in the way that the American or British forces had. There was no designated marksman in German squads or companies as that went against everything in their squad tactics book. In fact, the man who carried the MG was generally supposed to BE the best shot in the entire squad, due to the MG's importance.

I read in several chapters of a Sven Hassel's book that at least their combat group had variOus designated marksmen (2 or 3) that shot with scoped rifles. You can read in one chapter how Porta,the Little Legionnnaire and I dont remember who was the other count how many Soviet they had killed in that day. So hilarious,as always

 

[VonMudra]

And those would be snipers. I would note that a combat group was a rather large formation- made up of a mixture of various branches- so it is not inconcievable that it might have a couple company-level snipers in it. What I mean is squad designated marksmen- something the US and British armies did have (though neither issued them with scopes- they were simply the best shots in the squad and were used for scouting and long range shooting purposes when the case arised).

 

[Esu21]

Yea,but they were a Panzer Penal Division XD Porta sometimes goes with submachineguns,flamethrower or sniper rifle. I would say they were more of a Infantry normal squad when they didnt have tanks. Almost everytime. And when they didnt have to stop an assault or start one those 2 or 3 sometimes took out their scoped rifles and started shooting. Is it unussual or can it be?

 

[VonMudra]

Panzer Penal Division....? Not exactly sure what you are even talking about there. Sven Hassel served with 2nd and 6th Panzer, working up the ranks from a Soldat to a Leutnant. THere was never such a thing as a "Panzer Penal Division." A lot of what Sven Hassel did write has come under much scrutiny as being written by his wife, ghost writers, etc, with him just being a persona to staple the stories to. You can't really use the novels as any real guide to the real life situations

Soldiers weren't just able to change weapons out willy nilly. While some occasionally picked up a captured weapon, they still had to perform their duties in the squad, they couldn't just magically make themselves a sniper. Often, carrying a captured weapon meant having to carry both it AND your issued weapon. The few great German sniper aces who came from infantry backgrounds practiced on their own time, often with captured Russian guns, for weeks and months before they were actually noticed and brought out of lines to sniper school, then were redeployed as snipers.

 

[drummer93]

Guys, this discussion is interesting, but I still don't understand what they pretended using small scopes like the ZF41 and ZF4 in the STG44, for example. If the germans didn't have marksman, who use this kind of configuration?

 

[Esu21]

Sorry,in that book they were in the "27th (Penal) Panzer Regiment" (this time I checked it out). I have a lot of problems seeing the diferences in number of people involved of the different Army's group. When I said Division I meant Regiment :S And I know that carrying more than 1 weapon in the battlefield is quite hard,more in snowy terrains, but in the books they still managed to. They didn't mention how,so thats why I was asking if it was possible. I also think it was improbable. Thanks for answering xD

Also drummer,maybe they used small scopes for using them both in long and medium distances,even in short ones? My opinion,of course

 

[drummer93]

Also drummer,maybe they used small scopes for using them both in long and medium distances,even in short ones? My opinion,of course

yes I know, but what class of soldier?

 

[VonMudra]

Actually the ZF41 on the STG44 was roundly rejected as a weapon and was never used in combat. STG44s that already had the modification to accept the ZF41 were simply issued without it. The only photos of a STG44 in wartime with a ZF41 mounted come from the exact trials that it was rejected during.

"27th (Penal) Panzer Regiment" is not a real unit. It literally never existed. At all. 27th Panzer Regiment was a part of the 19th Panzer Division (not the 6th as "Sven" often claims) and was never at all a Penal unit. The only Penal units in the German army were infantry, and most were not in frontline duty- the few that were were simply expendable infantry units meant to do the work no one wanted to do, like clearing minefields and such.

This is, amoung other things, one of the big reasons the Sven Hassel books are mostly considered works of fiction by actual historians. Do NOT take anything they say as reality.

 

[Esu21]

"27th (Penal) Panzer Regiment" is not a real unit. It literally never existed. At all. 27th Panzer Regiment was a part of the 19th Panzer Division (not the 6th as "Sven" often claims) and was never at all a Penal unit. The only Penal units in the German army were infantry, and most were not in frontline duty- the few that were were simply expendable infantry units meant to do the work no one wanted to do, like clearing minefields and such.

This is, amoung other things, one of the big reasons the Sven Hassel books are mostly considered works of fiction by actual historians. Do NOT take anything they say as reality.

Oh wow. I also thought that it was strange that "criminals" were put in charge of tanks and such,but I always thought "well,I dont really know about military,so I guess it could be". Thanks for the clarification

 

[drummer93]

[MENTION=147]VonMudra[/MENTION] very clear. Thanks for the response. This thread is close

 

[Aniallator]

@VonMudra, how common were HUB-23 suppressors? I know the Brandenburgers used them, and that they saw limited use by snipers... but how common were they, in the Wehrmarcht? And I've heard they were used by the Fallschirmjäger, is that true?